Record-Eagle Blogs: If you are pro-choice, this post may not be for you…
marcusmead
· 1 month ago
It's the undeniable truth found in photos such as this that have lead many in our country to agree with you.
It's time to extend the law to protect these innocent, helpless human beings, and stop putting our heads in the sand or looking away.
jeff4
· 1 month ago
It's the undeniable truth found in photos such as this that have lead many in our country to agree with you. .... and even MORE to disagree.
Ed Hahnenberg
· 1 month ago
Jeff...Let me remind you of your recent reply: "Personally I'd never get an abortion after 10 weeks myself. I"m against that." Which Jeff are you?
jeff4
· 1 month ago
I'm against it PERSONALLY. If someone else wants one I'm 100% for it. I'd never get one or counsel my daughters or wife to get one after 10 weeks. Maybe this photojournalist should turn her camera lens on wars - take some close up pictures of an 18 year old with his head blown off. Or, maybe she should take some photos of children who have been deserted by their parents, living on the streets, prostituting themselves. How about some pictures of a rape victims mind - cluttered with thoughts of shame, humuliation, degradation and feelings of powerlessness. I'd like to see all of these pictures then let someone play God and tell me what's right and what's wrong. For now though the law is the law and the American people (and the rest of the world) are decidedly pro choice and pro woman.
Ed Hahnenberg
· 1 month ago
Jeff...As DeToqueville warned the infant democracy in the 1800s.... Americans can vote in immoral laws and lawmakers. So, the "law" may be the "law," but it is immoral in this case. The American people are NOT pro-choice. A new Gallup Poll, conducted May 7-10, finds 51% of Americans calling themselves "pro-life" on the issue of abortion and 42% "pro-choice." This is the first time a majority of U.S. adults have identified themselves as pro-life since Gallup began asking this question in 1995.
As to the rest of the world, statistics are hard to find, but let me share the Muslim view of abortion from the Koran...
While Islamic tradition thus evinces some diversity of views, the general trend is clearly against abortion. The Koran clearly defends the sanctity of life:
"If anyone slays a human being unless it be (in punishment) for murder or for spreading corruption on earth - it shall be as if he had slain the whole of mankind; whereas, if anyone saves a life, it shall be as if he had saved the lives of the whole of mankind (5:32).
Author Abul Fadl Mohsin Ebrahim writes in his book "Abortion, Birth Control and Surrogate Parenting: An Islamic Perspective":
"From this verse it is evident that every human being has the right to be born, the right to be, and the right to live as long as Allah (SWT) permits. No one may be deprived of life except for a legitimate crime as discussed above. The fetus is regarded by all schools of Islamic law has having the right to life, as indicated by the fact that the death sentence on a pregnant woman can be carried out only after she has given birth."
As a married man, I am decidedly pro-woman, but not pro-choice.
jeff4
· 1 month ago
Immoral? Who says so? I don't agree and you can quote scripture and the Koran and I still won't agree. If i had the choice of being aborted or forced into prostitution because i lived on the street after being abandoned by my biological parents - I'd take abortion. In my logical mind, its for more moral for me to be aborted in this case. As for your poll numbers I'm sure i could find some that say the exact opposite. If you are right i'm sure that the supreme court will soon change due to new appointees and the law will be changed to stop abortion. (won't ever happen Ed)
Ed Hahnenberg
· 1 month ago
Jeff...How can one dialogue with one who dismisses the existence of a Creator, one who does not believe in an afterlife, one whose moral code is his own, one who would choose his own abortion, and one who won't agree with the moral conclusions of the major world religions? Mission impossible.
Find a poll that is current and disputes Gallup's.
The Supreme Court has reversed itself before, i.e., the 1857 Dred Scott case, Brown v. Bd. of Ed., and a host of others. If Obama is a one-termer, don't be too confident that future appointees will uphold Roe v. Wade.
However that's not the point. I leave you with the words of the most selfless woman of modern times, Mother Teresa:
"America needs no words from me to see how your decision in Roe v. Wade has deformed a great nation. The so-called right to abortion has pitted mothers against their children and women against men.
It has sown violence and discord at the heart of the most intimate human relationships. It has aggravated the derogation of the father's role in an increasingly fatherless society. It has portrayed the greatest of gifts -- a child -- as a competitor, an intrusion, and an inconvenience. It has nominally accorded mothers unfettered dominion over the independent lives of their physically dependent sons and daughters"
And, in granting this unconscionable power, it has exposed many women to unjust and selfish demands from their husbands or other sexual partners.
Human rights are not a privilege conferred by government. They are every human being's entitlement by virtue of his humanity. The right to life does not depend, and must not be declared to be contingent, on the pleasure of anyone else, not even a parent or a sovereign."
"But I feel that the greatest destroyer of peace today is abortion, because it is a war against the child - a direct killing of the innocent child - murder by the mother herself. And if we accept that a mother can kill even her own child, how can we tell other people not to kill one another?
How do we persuade a woman not to have an abortion? As always, we must persuade her with love, and we remind ourselves that love means to be willing to give until it hurts.
Jesus gave even his life to love us. So the mother who is thinking of abortion, should be helped to love - that is, to give until it hurts her plans, or her free time, to respect the life of her child. The father of that child, whoever he is, must also give until it hurts.
By abortion, the mother does not learn to love, but kills even her own child to solve her problems. And by abortion, the father is told that he does not have to take any responsibility at all for the child he has brought into the world.
That father is likely to put other women into the same trouble. So abortion just leads to more abortion. Any country that accepts abortion is not teaching the people to love, but to use any violence to get what they want.
That is why the greatest destroyer of love and peace is abortion. " "Please don't kill the child. I want the child. Please give me the child. I am willing to accept any child who would be aborted, and to give that child to a married couple who will love the child, and be loved by the child.
From our children's home in Calcutta alone, we have saved over 3,000 children from abortions. These children have brought such love and joy to their adopting parents, and have grown up so full of love and joy!"
jeff4
· 1 month ago
You're right Ed, we can't dialogue about it. I know I am right and you think you are right, we won't sway each other. I'm just pointing out this fact - What's worse - an abortion of a fetus or the killing of soldiers in a war - both are CHOICES and both are legal - But, I'd say war is far more MORALLY wrong. Which of us simple humans can point the finger and say which is worse or better or whatever - You can try to play God Mr. Ed and say I'm morally reprehensible, but the fact is, ur not god. Until then keep your laws off my wifes, sisters, and daughters body and let THEM decide if they want an abortion. As for Mother Teresa - even SHE doubts the existence of god ... http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1...
Michael Fields
· 1 month ago
Jeff, if you had the choice, of nonexistence or abject poverty and abuse on the streets, you choose not to be alive? You've taken a very broad topic, life or death and tunneled your reply into a closed-ended theoretical argument.
You do possess the choice to live or die. However depending on the choice it's illegal, immoral, and a sin against God.
The Muslim faith parallels Christian teachings in many aspects. Hundreds of millions of Christ's followers may be wrong in your view. Then again, if we were all aborted there would be no venue for discussion...
jeff4
· 1 month ago
Hey Michael Fields - now YOU are playing God. I'm impressed that you can simply wave your wand and determine WHO is morally right and who is morally wrong. Let your creator determine that if you would please. What's illegal? Last i checked abortion was legal. What's immoral? Millions and millions disagree with you - morality is a relative term. Sin against God? In many many many cases, I'd bet he doesnt agree.
jeff4
· 1 month ago
oops, and yes, mike, i'd take NO exsitence, no life, being aborted over the life you mentioned.
dougmafra
· 1 month ago
How hipocritic that we cry for "human rights" around the world, yet we do nothing to stop the murder of millions of innocent within our own borders! How dare we! Thank you for once again reminding us of who we really are.
iryshqueen
· 1 month ago
Someone answer me this....why are we so shocked at Anne Avery-Miller's "alleged" murder of her son 16 year old son Sam when 4,500 murders will take place today by parents in abortion clinics like Planned Parenthood. What part of that is planned....the murdering of innocent life? When the govt legalized killing in 1973 our society began down a slippery slope that we will never recover from until we stop this shedding of innocent blood. AND NOW our "healthcare reform" is supposed to include abortion, infanticide and euthanasia as well as contraceptive abortifacients at the tax payers expense?! No one should be shocked at the number of innocent children being killed when we allow it at the moment of life. When do we stop then at 16?
Michael Fields
· 1 month ago
Ed, I simply want to say thanks for posting the beautiful quote by Mother Teresa. I have four beautiful, wonderful children that will certainly leave a positive imprint upon this earth.
Mother Teresa's statement concerning the dismissive air which Fathers are held is correct. Mothers are encouraged to be single parents upon the slightest discord in marriage; Paternal guidance and influence means little other than a support check.
Men have no legal say concerning the murder of their child if a woman decides to terminate an emerging human life. The liberal rhetoric espoused by many that abortion gets a man "off the hook" is simply malarchy. Men do love, support, guide, and protect their children lovingly.
Each and every one of these little babies has a soul. A soul that many others would welcome into their lives through adoption. I can empathize with a woman that carries a child for ten months. The alternative, scraping out that little child's remains to forego the challenge of carrying to term simply doesn't hold weight.
I am combining my response a little bit, but your posts are interrelated; God, child, parents, and earth - what life is meant to be!
Again, kep up the eloquent, intelligent, caring and compassionate posts.
Ed Hahnenberg
· 1 month ago
Michael ... Thank you for your kind words. Sometimes I feel like a man on a desert island with sharks in the water and nowhere to look but up. Thanks again to Doug and Iryshqueen for supporting life. My take on the antichrists is that this disdain for life in the womb is one of them.
There is no greater gift God can give us but a share in His life, and while He is most loving and forgiving, I fear His patience is running out with a billion of His children snuffed out by abortion.
jeff4
· 1 month ago
Why do you feel like a man on a desert island Ed. You have millions of supporters and people who agree with every word you type on this topic. Ur not alone. If you fear God's patience is running out .... it sounds like you are predicting something or ...?
Ed Hahnenberg
· 1 month ago
Jeff...While I believe Christ will come in His own good time, when I look at the destruction by mankind of one-seventh of the human race by abortion, I do feel isolated from the trend of the world in this regard. Last evening, the HR approved a $1.1 trillion compromise bill which contains a provision for NO government funding for abortion. Rep. Bart Stupak (D) from Michigan led the 60 member Democratic coalition against abortion to get the compromise. I recently had a face-to-face half-hour discussion with him on this and real estate taxes staying the same as property values plummeted.
Guess what? Now I learn that when the Senate and House versions of Obama-care go into committee to iron out differences, that anti-abortion section will be eliminated. Do you think I want one thin dime going for killing a child in the womb? I'll render to Caesar what is his and his only, but to God first and foremost what is His right...the right to create. I hope I'm not on an island alone if that time comes.
jeff4
· 1 month ago
I like Bart. The dude's very smart.
Ed Hahnenberg
· 1 month ago
Bart is a rebellious, in-your-face, bratty idiot. He fittingly comes from Groening's book "Life in Hell." Great role model for kids.
jeff4
· 1 month ago
Bart spoke at my son's high school last school year and parents were invited in to listen also. He was not "in your face, bratty, or idiotic." He was well spoken, polite, and very intelligent in fact. Just because you don't agree I wouldn't resort to name calling and put-downs - THAT wouldn't be a great role model for kids Mr. Ed.
Ed Hahnenberg
· 1 month ago
Jeff and all pro-choice followers. If you can stomach these normal abortion procedures, I question your humanity and sanity:
There are many methods of abortion. The procedure used depends largely upon the stage of pregnancy and the size of the unborn child. Dr. J.C. Willke, in his book, Abortion: Questions and Answers (Hayes Publishing Co. Inc, Cincinnati, 1985), has divided the methods of abortion into three main categories: those that invade the uterus and kill the child by instruments which enter the uterus through the cervix; those that kill the preborn child by administration of drugs and then induce labour and the delivery of a dead baby; and, those that invade the uterus by abdominal surgery.
Dilation of the uterus is required in cervical methods of abortion. The usual method of dilation is to insert a series of instruments of increasing size into the cervix. A set of dilators, metallic curved instruments, are used to open the cervix sufficiently to accommodate the instruments of abortion. In contrast with a normal birth, where the dilation occurs slowly over a period of many hours, the forceful stretching by the abortionist to open the cervix takes a matter of seconds. This premature and unnatural stretching of the cervix can result in permanent physical injury to the mother.
Laminaria (dehydrated material, usually seaweed) is sometimes used to reduce damage to the cervix. Inserted into the cervix the day before the scheduled abortion, it absorbs water and swells, gradually pushing open the cervix in the process.
At Eight Weeks
At eight to nine weeks the eyelids have begun forming and hair appears. By the ninth and tenth weeks the preborn child sucks her thumb, turns somersaults, jumps, can squint to close out light, frown, swallow, and move her tongue.
At this early stage of development, suction abortions are performed using a smaller tube, requiring little dilation of the cervix. This is called "menstrual extraction." However, if all the fetal remains are not removed, infection results, requiring full dilation of the cervix and a scraping out of the womb.
Suction Aspiration
This is the most common method of abortion during the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. General or local anaesthesia is given to the mother and her cervix is quickly dilated. A suction curette (hollow tube with a knife-edged tip) is inserted into the womb. This instrument is then connected to a vacuum machine by a transparent tube. The vacuum suction, 29 times more powerful than a household vacuum cleaner, tears the fetus and placenta into small pieces which are sucked through the tube into a bottle and discarded.
Dilation and Curettage (D&C)
This method is similar to the suction method with the added insertion of a hook shaped knife (curette) which cuts the baby into pieces. The pieces are scraped out through the cervix and discarded [Note: This abortion method should not be confused with a therapeutic D&C done for reasons other than pregancy.]
At Twelve Weeks
By the end of the third month all arteries are present, including the coronary vessels of the heart. Blood is circulating through these vessels to all body parts. The heart beat ranges during this fetal period from 110 to 160 beats per minute. All blood cells are produced by the liver and spleen, a job soon taken over by the bone marrow. White blood cells, important for immunity, are formed in the lymph nodes and thymus.
Vocal chords are complete, and the child can and does sometimes cry (silently). The brain is fully formed, and the child can feel pain. The fetus may even suck his thumb. The eyelids now cover the eyes, and will remain shut until the seventh month to protect the delicate optical nerve fibers.
14 weeks: Muscles lenghten and become organized. The mother will soon start feeling the first flutters of the baby kicking and moving inside.
15 weeks: The fetus has an adult's taste buds and may be able to savor the mother's meals.
16 weeks: Five and a half inches tall and only six ounces in weight, eyebrows, eyelashes and fine hair appear. The child can grasp with his hands, kick, or even somersault.
At Eighteen Weeks
The fetus is now about 5 inches long. The child blinks, grasps, and moves her mouth. Hair grows on the head and body.
20 weeks: The child can hear and recognize mother's voice. Though still small and fragile, the baby is growing rapidly and could possibly survive if born at this stage. Fingernails and fingerprints appear. Sex organs are visible. Using an ultrasound device, the doctor can tell if the child is a girl or a boy.
Dilation and Evacuation (D&E)
This method is used up to 18 weeks' gestation. Instead of the loop-shaped knife used in D&C abortions, a pair of forceps is inserted into the womb to grasp part of the fetus. The teeth of the forceps twist and tear the bones of the unborn child. This process is repeated until the fetus is totally dismembered and removed. Usually the spine must be snapped and the skull crushed in order to remove them.
Salt Poisoning (Saline Injection):
Used after 16 weeks (four months) when enough fluid has accumulated. A long needle injects a strong salt solution through the mother's abdomen into the baby's sac. The baby swallows this fluid and is poisoned by it. It also acts as a corrosive, burning off the outer layer of skin. It normally takes somewhat over an hour for the baby to die from this. Within 24 hours, labor will usually set in and the mother will give birth to a dead or dying baby. (There have been many cases of these babies being born alive. They are usually left unattended to die. However, a few have survived and later been adopted.)
At Six Months
Seen here at six months, the unborn child is covered with a fine, downy hair called lanugo. Its tender skin is protected by a waxy substance called vernix. Some of this substance may still be on the child's skin at birth at which time it will be quickly absorbed. The child practices breathing by inhaling amnionic fluid into developing lungs.
Prostaglandin Chemical Abortion
This form of abortion uses chemicals developed by the Upjohn Pharmaceutical Co. which cause the uterus to contract intensely, pushing out the developing baby. The contractions are more violent than normal, natural contractions, so the unborn baby is frequently killed by them -- some have even been decapitated. Many, however, have also been born alive.
Hysterotomy or Caesarean Section
Used mainly in the last three months of pregnancy, the womb is entered by surgery through the wall of the abdomen. The technique is similar to a Caesarean delivery, except that the umbilical cord is usually cut while the baby is still in the womb, thus cutting off his oxygen supply and causing him to suffocate. Sometimes the baby is removed alive and simply left in a corner to die of neglect or exposure.
At 30 Weeks
For several months, the umbilical cord has been the baby's lifeline to the mother. Nourishment is transferred from the mother's blood, through the placenta, and into the umbilical cord to the fetus. If the mother ingests any toxic substances, such as drugs or alcohol, the baby receives these as well.
32 weeks: The fetus sleeps 90-95% of the day, and sometimes experiences REM sleep, an indication of dreaming.
Partial-Birth Abortion
Five steps to a partial birth abortion: 1. Guided by ultrasound, the abortionist grabs the baby's legs with forceps.
2. The baby's leg is pulled out into the birth canal.
3. The abortionist delivers the baby's entire body, except for the head.
4. The abortionist jams scissors into the baby's skull. The scissors are then opened to enlarge the skull.
5. The scissors are removed and a suction catheter is inserted. The child's brains are sucked out, causing the skull to collapse. The dead baby is then removed.
jeff4
· 1 month ago
No i can't that's why i personally don't agree with abortion. But for those who can stomach it, I agree they should have that right.
Ed Hahnenberg
· 1 month ago
Which is worse? Killing 13 fellow soldiers, snuffing out the lives of 10 innocent people, or pulling out arms and legs, snapping spines, and sucking brains out of children in the womb millions of times in this country alone?
Pro-choice advocates have no logic to defend abortion because the practice is simply legalized murder. Shame on anyone who tolerates this abomination.
Last evening, John Allen Muhammed was put to death for murder during a three-week killing spree in 2002. No doubt Maj. Nidal Hasan will get the same justice.
The President was at his eloquent best when he noted, at Fort Worth, "It may be hard to comprehend the twisted logic that led to this tragedy. But this much we do know: No faith justifies these murderous and craven acts.''
I say no twisted logic of pro-choice advocates, or anyone with any faith or sense of decency, compassion, or love of children can justify the murderous and craven acts that are abortions.
jeff4
· 1 month ago
back and forth and back and forth we go. neither swaying each other. Its not a debate Ed, neither of us will win. You can try to put your right wing ideology into me, you can try to convince me I'm illogical and an abomination, but i'll continue to believe i'm not. You are free to have your ideas and I'm free to have mine. I'd suggest you don't get an abortion. I'd also suggest you become a conscientious objector for war then too. If we can't "kill" a fetus why can we kill Maj. Nidal? Seems as though its a double standard if you call a "life" sacred.
jeff4
· 1 month ago
and now i'm twisted, illogical, craven, indecent, unloving and lacking compassion. Yikes, I'll burn in hell with the hillside strangler, jack the ripper, and other assorted hoodlums.
Ed Hahnenberg
· 1 month ago
Jeff...All you offer is opinion, not substantive debate. FYI I am against capital punishment and unjust wars. For my part, dialogue with you on this topic is over.
One last story: Abby Johnson, 29, was a Planned Parenthood Director in Bryan, Texas. After witnessing an abortion while watching the baby die on an ultrasound screen, Johnson resigned her position in October and started volunteering for Coalition for Life, a pro-life group located just a block away from the Planned Parenthood clinic where she worked for eight years.
We're all in this together, my friend. If you want to enjoy company with Jack the Ripper, that's your choice. I hope you will have a change of heart as did Ms. Johnson.
jeff4
· 1 month ago
How can someone who believes life is so SACRED say that Nidal will get the "same justice." Sure seems like a double standard Mr. Ed.
A couple weeks/months ago you said you thought someone like me might have a place in heaven - now you think i DO have a place next to Jack the Ripper.
And you're right - it is my opinion. You still think you are basing all your arguments on FACT and the bible and blah - but your arguments are just as opinion based as mine.
I hope that you will have a change of heart too - stop the finger pointing and do something positive to help your cause. Adopt a drug addicted youngster with learning problems who used to watch his mother prostitute herself to pay for her drugs. Adopt this child and give him/her a loving home. That would be a start, rather than pointing fingers through your blog and stirring up the debate with pictures of aborted fetuses. TO me this is far more of an injustice than ANY abortion - this picture - http://www.greatdreams.com/war/Napalm-vietnam.jpg
Ed Hahnenberg
· 1 month ago
Jeff...Since you bring up items not directly related to abortion, from our past discussions, etc., I will clarify. I am not pointing a finger at you for your beliefs. You may very well wind up in heaven...that is your choice, based on your love of neighbor and continued search for God.
You may demean religion and continue your diatribes against the belief in a Supreme Being held by well over nine out of ten of the world’s population. I suspect most people can see through your atheistic, in-your-face bravado. After this response of mine, I don't see any compelling reason to reason with you on anything, unless you show some common sense logic, with civility, in your replies.
As to the double standard on the death penalty...I did not say I agreed with the "justice" that the military courts may give Nidal (the death penalty), nor do I suggest that anyone who is complicit in abortions is destined for eternal damnation.
As I've said before to you, there is subjective truth and there is objective truth. I try to seek objective truth. What a person may believe subjectively is between that person and his/her conscience and/or God.
I trust all aborted children are with God. Hopefully their parents will join them as they realize over time what they have done. Yet even if they subjectively believe an abortion is not wrong, it seems to me that God will only judge them on their subjective understanding of objective truth. That, however, assumes they have sought objective truth sincerely.
It is in this that I feel motivated to point out what science shows us in ultra-sound images. In 1973 when Roe v. Wade became law, there were no ultra-sound images available. I believe this alone has caused over half of the American public to become pro-life.
Coupled with that, there is the common sense conclusion that anyone should come to in seeing how illogical it is to say that a growing fetus is not human, but a three-minute old baby is.
jeff4
· 1 month ago
and yes you ARE pointing a finger at me and others. In the first line of your post you use the word "INTELLIGENT" in a sarcastic way to let us on the opposite side of the fence know that we're idiots. You also call us craven, indecent, and lacking compassion. You ARE pointing fingers and stirring the pot just like many "pro-lifers" do - I'm simply disagreeing with you in a NICE fashion, no name calling. I'd expect more from someone with a theological degree. Love thy neighbor as thyself Ed.
jeff4
· 1 month ago
oh wait, and we haven't even gotten into that biblical quote where God himself decrees a mass abortion against some group he's mad at. I forget the exact scripture quote. And, he's clearly not pro-life. Numbers 25:4-9, when the Lord casually orders Moses to massacre 24,000 Israelites: "Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun."
Ed Hahnenberg
· 4 weeks ago
Did God order the annihilation of enemies, including pregnant women and infants? To assume that God deliberately ordered the slaughter of innocents or mass genocide is an incomplete conclusion, despite the interpretation the writers of the Old Testament put on these issues in several places. One must understand the Old Testament writers’ mentality about destruction of one’s enemies, pregnant women and infants included. The Old Testament was the imperfect revelation of God through writers whose focus was on the preservation of the Jewish belief in one God. The Jewish people were not immune to the practice of neighboring pagan tribes to annihilate their enemies totally. For example, most of the Mosaic laws of Leviticus are considered irrelevant today by Christians because of the perfect revelation given by Christ. Paul himself signaled the end of the Mosaic covenant in several places, but probably nowhere more clearly than in Galatians 5:18: “But if you are guided by the Spirit, you are not under the Law (of Moses).”
In Dei Verbum, Chapter III, paragraph 12, from Vatican II, there is good advice given in attempting to understand writings in the Old Testament.
“To search out the intention of the sacred writers, attention should be given, among other things, to "literary forms." For truth is set forth and expressed differently in texts which are variously historical, prophetic, poetic, or of other forms of discourse. The interpreter must investigate what meaning the sacred writer intended to express and actually expressed in particular circumstances by using contemporary literary forms in accordance with the situation of his own time and culture. For the correct understanding of what the sacred author wanted to assert, due attention must be paid to the customary and characteristic styles of feeling, speaking and narrating which prevailed at the time of the sacred writer, and to the patterns men normally employed at that period in their everyday dealings with one another.”
jeff4
· 4 weeks ago
So let me see if I'm getting this right. When God says to annihilate someone or to kill a bunch of people who disagree, or sends a flood to kill everyone on earth, or kill an unborn child in a womb back in the old testament this was probably an "imperfect revelation of God." -- Does this mean the old testament writers were WRONG? or does this mean that they were right but in the new Testament God just is saying "Don't follow those old laws of killing and annihilation any more." I'm confused Ed.
these also confuse me -- Genesis 38:24 and Numbers 5:12-31 YIKES! That old testament is some scary stuff.
Ed Hahnenberg
· 4 weeks ago
Any Christian who interprets the Old Testament literally, without regard to the historical-critical method, will inevitably run into many unsolveable problems. In the OT, God seems to waffle, is vengeful, sanctions polygamy, calls for the total annihilation of one's enemies, etc. He certainly appears not to be the Teacher of 'loving one's enemies," the Teacher of monogomy, or the God who died on the cross for mankind.
The God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New Testament. So why the apparent contradictions?
The God who created the physical universe quite probably in what science calls the Big Bang 13 billion years ago or so has never been in a hurry to reveal His actions. So it is with the Old Testament. He reveals therein that He is Creator to be worshiped as the one, true God. He identifies a group of people, the Hebrews, to bring the message to mankind.
They respond, haltingly at times, in accepting His revelation. They may or may not have changed their cultural morality as regards polygamy, treatment of enemies, and their perception of Yahweh as supporter of everything they did as a people. Remember, God rarely acts at the snap of a finger. He took His time with the chosen people.
Much of the history of the Jewish people up until the time of David is open to question. Written down during the Babylonian Exile in the 6th century BC and later, the details of their heros Abraham and Moses were simply not known. The "hero" stories, yes...and made believeable in the methodology of historical reporting. Yet, were they embellishments of dimly-remembered stories whose source we may never know...possibly. Or were they fabrications to teach, in parable form, some lesson...possibly. However, the focus was usually on a moral lesson, in most cases superior to the morality of contemporaneous pagan tribes. It is this which made the Hebrew "history" unique.
The details of the Book of Joshua with its non-stop slaughter of those towns occupying the Promised Land, for example, have little corroboration from archeology. Did the events of that book actually occur? Or was it the way in which a "great people" should have done things in the view of the writers of the 6th century BC?
Is this to say that the Old Testament is not God's revealed Word? No. It is only to say that God used that people, whose way of expressing their belief in Yahweh fit their primitive mentality, to reveal Himself slowly albeit incompletely.
It is only with Jesus Christ, co-equal and co-eternal with the Father, that we arrive at God's full revelation of Himself as all-good, all-loving, yet always respectful of His gift to us...free will.
Finally, it is in the continued work of the God the Holy Spirit until the end of the age that we have the assurance that the revelation of Christ will endure.
Upon our death we will see God as He really is. As Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 13: 12: "At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known."
If one who is skeptical of Scripture does not understand the historical-critical method of interpreting the Old Testament, that person is apt do what the early Christian heretical theologian Marcion (ca 85-160 AD) did...dump the Old Testament as anything but God's Word...or point out the "contradictions" between the OT and the NT.
jeff4
· 3 weeks ago
thanks for the lesson Ed, i didnt know a lot of that stuff. Seems like christians would be better off dumping the old testament. that's some wild stuff in there. I'm with Marcion.
Sijjvra
· 3 weeks ago
You still haven't changed my mind. Likely you never will.
Sijjvra
· 3 weeks ago
Also - "moral conclusions of world religions"? You're kidding right? Most religions state a woman needs to be completely subserviant to men, men have a right to beat their wives, violence is ok so long as it's "for your faith" and if whatever god you think is up there tells you to sacrifice your son, your daughter or yourself to make "him" happy you'd better do it.
Oh those sound absolutely moral.
I can almost guarantee you that as a non-religious person I am likely far more "moral" that 99% of God-praising people that seem to get especially faithful when they want to push their own views on others, or it somehow benefits them personally. That sounds decidedly unmoral to me.
Ed Hahnenberg
· 2 weeks ago
Sijjvra...Yes, much of what you say is true. For example, wars have been fought in the name of religion, but so have they been fought over race, etc. What mankind does in the name of religion does not invalidate the goodness inherent in the principles religion teaches. I would be careful not to dismiss all religions as myth. History, and/or the historical-critical method, can dismiss that position. Keep up your good choices in life, thanks for reading, but keep an open mind, and, maybe this Thanksgiving, say a skeptic's prayer to the Person to whom most will give thanks... to know the truth of all that matters...such as "If You are there, teach me."
simchai
· 2 weeks ago
Ed, god have mercy on you (she doesn't care about capital letters) your 11/05 post about how you don't want to dialogue with people who won't agree with you about there being a creator is sad, Your moral code is just as much your own as an atheists, you simply want us to believe god gave you better insights or that you must be right because you have a blood murderous religious history on your side, tho' I'm sure you feel religion is all goodness and light. Theists and atheists can dialogue and believe in love and minimal harm, that is what god is about, not insulting people.
Ed Hahnenberg
· 2 weeks ago
simchai ... I admit I need God's mercy. I'm not sure which reply or post you are talking about, though, because I posted nothing on 11/05 and had one reply which thanked me for Mother Teresa's quote.
As to dialogue with atheists, I have done that many times, but when the same negativity about God's existence is shoved in my face, I confess I get frustrated.
If you have gone through my countless replies on the topic, I have always maintained that I do not judge anyone on their subjective view of truth. I've said several times that atheists may very well go to heaven if they have made a sincere effort to find objective truth.
No, religion is not all goodness and light when mankind uses it to murder, kill, rape, etc.
I agree with your last sentence without hesitation, and I agree that my moral code is subjective, but I have faith that it is in line with objective truth.
simchai
· 2 weeks ago
the order of post here seems odd at times so I can't fault you for not going up high enough to see "Ed Hahnenberg 11/05/2009 07:27 AM Jeff...How can one dialogue with one who dismisses the existence of a Creator, one who does not believe in an afterlife, one whose moral code is his own, one who would choose his own abortion, and one who won't agree with the moral conclusions of the major world religions? Mission impossible"
However your message today which I am replying to was nice and impressively so, you have MPD? just joking and nice to see you typing in this tone, Kol Shalom m'Ahava
Ed Hahnenberg
· 2 weeks ago
simchai....אני רואה לך חבר של ארגון יהודי. איפה זה איתר? לא, אין לי הרבה אישיויות. פשוט אחד. האם אתה קראת את העמדה שלי על האבולוציה של אמונה בעולם הבא בספר התנ"ך? יש לי עוד שתי חלקים באו. אני אהיה עיניינתי בהשקפה שלך מהשלוש סידרת החלק שלי על הנושא. שלום
Ed Hahnenberg
· 6 days ago
Planned Parenthood Office, Appleton, Wisconsin, September, 2009...Watch and listen to a doctor and nurse counsel a young lady about having an abortion. The doctor has been performing abortions for forty years. Watch this five minute session at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIXHrusvMDw.
The Planned Parenthood Federation of America has released its annual report for fiscal year 2007-2008. The document shows the nation's largest abortion business is getting bigger as it showed an increase of five percent more abortions and increased taxpayer funding.
According to Planned Parenthood's latest report, abortions increased to 305,310 abortions up from 289,750 in 2006.
That 5.3 percent increase came at a time when the Alan Guttmacher Institute, it's former research arm, showed abortions were at near-historic lows.
Thus, while abortions were on the decline in the United States, and while Planned Parenthood sought to distance itself from its abortion business, Planned Parenthood did more abortions than it has done in years.
The annual report showed more government funding heading to the abortion business even if the taxpayer funds did not directly pay for abortions.
The total government grants and contracts received by PPFA affiliates from government sources including state, local and federal governments, increased from $337 million to $350 million.
The government is funding murder, and you can be sure that what comes out of conference between the House and Senate version of healthcare will increase that funding, denials to the contrary.
jeff4
· 5 days ago
When i read that the government was funding murder I immediately thought of vietnam, korea, iraq, gulf war, etc etc. all legal murders if you want to call it that mr. ed. I call it planned parenthood, smart thinking, logical choices, and the freedom for women to choose.
Ed Hahnenberg
· 2 days ago
I had three huge clumped maple trees overhanging our house and driveway. Two showed signs of a hollow portion about five feet up. Fortunately, my neighbor had a tree service company doing some work, and I was notified of the condition of my trees. Needless to say, it wasn’t a hard decision to make. Cut the trees down or maybe lose the attic and a couple of cars in the driveway.
Today, Dec. 13th, the Senate voted on a $1.1 trillion omnibus bill which, among other things will fund Medicare and Medicaid. Okay, that portion is huge but necessary. The Senate approved the omnibus spending bill which would lift the 13-year-long ban on directly paying for abortions in the nation's capital. The camel's (or donkey's) nose and head of Senate Democrats, with their pro-choice party platform, is under the pro-life tent, even if the funding is only for abortions in DC. The legislation, which President Barack Obama is expected to sign, also contains funding for Planned Parenthood and the UNFPA. As predictable, by a 57-35 vote, the Democrats prevailed.
However, there is $447 billion in operating budgets for 10 Cabinet departments. Mixed in are more than 5,000 earmarks totaling $3.9 billion.
Well, we’re in the middle of a recession, unemployment is 10%, a trillion-plus dollar healthcare bill will probably become law before Christmas, cap and trade is on the horizon, so what’s $3,900,000,000 for pet congressional projects…chicken feed. Who notices, who cares, and why focus on such miniscule expenditures when our current national debt ceiling has to be raised to $14,000,000,000,000 just to get by for a few more months? And who, in their right mind, would begin funding murder of children in the womb and go on record for such insanity? But, back to the other insanities of the bill...
Take a look at a few of the pork projects from Democrats ( and Republicans alike…)
Citizens Against Government Waste, as well as Sen. John McCain's staff, have drawn attention to dozens of items they consider questionable. Here's just a sampling:
-- $150,000 for educational programs and exhibitions at the National Building Museum. -- $400,000 for renovation of the Brooklyn Botanical Garden. -- $150,000 for exhibits at the Theodore Roosevelt Inaugural Site Foundation in Buffalo, N.Y. -- $500,000 for Mississippi River exhibits at the National Mississippi River Museum and Aquarium in Dubuque, Iowa. -- $200,000 for the Washington National Opera. -- $30,000 for the Woodstock Film Festival Youth Initiative. -- $2.7 million for the University of Nebraska Medical Center, to support surgical operations in space. -- $200,000 for a visitor's center in Bastrop, Texas. -- $700,000 for a project called, "Shrimp Industry Fishing Effort Research Continuation," at the National Marine Fisheries Service in Silver Spring, Md. -- $292,200 for the elimination of blight in Scranton, Pa. -- $750,000 for exhibits at the World Food Prize Hall of Laureates in Iowa. -- $1.6 million for a tram between the Marshall Flight Center and Huntsville Botanical Garden in Alabama. -- $655,000 for equipment at the Institute for Irritable Bowel Syndrome Research in Los Angeles.
The House version, recently passed, has 9000 earmarks. When the Senate and House get together to work out a combined package, it’s Christmas presents for legislators’ constituents in almost every district and state in the Union.
Other examples:
Senator Harry Reid wants $143,000 for national history programs at the Las Vegas History Museum.
From a Wyoming congressman, Barbara Cubin, put in almost $200,000 for digitizing and editing the collection at the Buffalo Bill Historical Center. (She's not even in office anymore.)
Then there's the $200,000 to be used for tattoo removal, courtesy of California's Howard Berman.
And Richard Shelby's $800,000 for catfish genetics down in Alabama.
More than $1 million to battle Utah's Mormon crickets, which apparently have nothing to do with the Mormon people.
Max Baucus has a quarter of a million slated for the Montana Sheep Institute.
And thanks to Tom Harkin, almost $2 million for swine odor and manure management.
More than $2 million for buildings at the Center for Grape Genetics in Geneva, New York, requested by Senator Chuck Schumer.
Senator Saxby Chambliss wants $200,000 for improving blueberry production and efficiency.
And more than $300,000 for research in shellfish technologies in Virginia requested by Senator Jim Webb.
Over $5 million going to salaries of workers at the Sugar Beet Disease and Oncology Labs in Michigan, courtesy of their senator, Mr. Carl Levin.
Senator Daniel Inouye of Hawaii wants $162,000 for rodent control, half a million for a fruit fly facility, and more than $200,000 for education programs at the Polynesian Voyaging Society. That's a group studying how Polynesian people sailed around the Pacific Ocean.
Have we examined more than 13,000 more earmarks? No. I say, the money tree needs major trimming. Cut the money tree down to a size where it won’t destroy our country's economic future, because much of Washington's money tree is rotten to the core, and in 2010, get rid of those parasites in Washington who continue to feed off our tax dollars that haven’t even sprouted yet.
While the Democrats were at it, they dumped a 13 year off-limits status quo by authorizing the use of federal dollars to fund future abortions in the very beltway area they work...a new moral low for Congress' 28% approval rating. Is there any morality left in Washington?
Mark my words, the Stupak amendment in the House healthcare bill is now in serious jeopardy...and this country will use tax dollars to murder children in the womb. Talk about death panels...oh, by the way, the Prez did give an abbreviated moral justification for just wars in Oslo...too bad he may not see the immoral use of federal dollars to kill our own future citizens.
All Comments
It's time to extend the law to protect these innocent, helpless human beings, and stop putting our heads in the sand or looking away.
As to the rest of the world, statistics are hard to find, but let me share the Muslim view of abortion from the Koran...
While Islamic tradition thus evinces some diversity of views, the general trend is clearly against abortion. The Koran clearly defends the sanctity of life:
"If anyone slays a human being unless it be (in punishment) for murder or for spreading corruption on earth - it shall be as if he had slain the whole of mankind; whereas, if anyone saves a life, it shall be as if he had saved the lives of the whole of mankind (5:32).
Author Abul Fadl Mohsin Ebrahim writes in his book "Abortion, Birth Control and Surrogate Parenting: An Islamic Perspective":
"From this verse it is evident that every human being has the right to be born, the right to be, and the right to live as long as Allah (SWT) permits. No one may be deprived of life except for a legitimate crime as discussed above. The fetus is regarded by all schools of Islamic law has having the right to life, as indicated by the fact that the death sentence on a pregnant woman can be carried out only after she has given birth."
As a married man, I am decidedly pro-woman, but not pro-choice.
Find a poll that is current and disputes Gallup's.
The Supreme Court has reversed itself before, i.e., the 1857 Dred Scott case, Brown v. Bd. of Ed., and a host of others. If Obama is a one-termer, don't be too confident that future appointees will uphold Roe v. Wade.
However that's not the point. I leave you with the words of the most selfless woman of modern times, Mother Teresa:
"America needs no words from me to see how your decision in Roe v. Wade has deformed a great nation. The so-called right to abortion has pitted mothers against their children and women against men.
It has sown violence and discord at the heart of the most intimate human relationships. It has aggravated the derogation of the father's role in an increasingly fatherless society. It has portrayed the greatest of gifts -- a child -- as a competitor, an intrusion, and an inconvenience. It has nominally accorded mothers unfettered dominion over the independent lives of their physically dependent sons and daughters"
And, in granting this unconscionable power, it has exposed many women to unjust and selfish demands from their husbands or other sexual partners.
Human rights are not a privilege conferred by government. They are every human being's entitlement by virtue of his humanity. The right to life does not depend, and must not be declared to be contingent, on the pleasure of anyone else, not even a parent or a sovereign."
"But I feel that the greatest destroyer of peace today is abortion, because it is a war against the child - a direct killing of the innocent child - murder by the mother herself. And if we accept that a mother can kill even her own child, how can we tell other people not to kill one another?
How do we persuade a woman not to have an abortion? As always, we must persuade her with love, and we remind ourselves that love means to be willing to give until it hurts.
Jesus gave even his life to love us. So the mother who is thinking of abortion, should be helped to love - that is, to give until it hurts her plans, or her free time, to respect the life of her child. The father of that child, whoever he is, must also give until it hurts.
By abortion, the mother does not learn to love, but kills even her own child to solve her problems. And by abortion, the father is told that he does not have to take any responsibility at all for the child he has brought into the world.
That father is likely to put other women into the same trouble. So abortion just leads to more abortion. Any country that accepts abortion is not teaching the people to love, but to use any violence to get what they want.
That is why the greatest destroyer of love and peace is abortion. " "Please don't kill the child. I want the child. Please give me the child. I am willing to accept any child who would be aborted, and to give that child to a married couple who will love the child, and be loved by the child.
From our children's home in Calcutta alone, we have saved over 3,000 children from abortions. These children have brought such love and joy to their adopting parents, and have grown up so full of love and joy!"
You do possess the choice to live or die. However depending on the choice it's illegal, immoral, and a sin against God.
The Muslim faith parallels Christian teachings in many aspects. Hundreds of millions of Christ's followers may be wrong in your view. Then again, if we were all aborted there would be no venue for discussion...
Mother Teresa's statement concerning the dismissive air which Fathers are held is correct. Mothers are encouraged to be single parents upon the slightest discord in marriage; Paternal guidance and influence means little other than a support check.
Men have no legal say concerning the murder of their child if a woman decides to terminate an emerging human life. The liberal rhetoric espoused by many that abortion gets a man "off the hook" is simply malarchy. Men do love, support, guide, and protect their children lovingly.
Each and every one of these little babies has a soul. A soul that many others would welcome into their lives through adoption. I can empathize with a woman that carries a child for ten months. The alternative, scraping out that little child's remains to forego the challenge of carrying to term simply doesn't hold weight.
I am combining my response a little bit, but your posts are interrelated; God, child, parents, and earth - what life is meant to be!
Again, kep up the eloquent, intelligent, caring and compassionate posts.
There is no greater gift God can give us but a share in His life, and while He is most loving and forgiving, I fear His patience is running out with a billion of His children snuffed out by abortion.
Guess what? Now I learn that when the Senate and House versions of Obama-care go into committee to iron out differences, that anti-abortion section will be eliminated. Do you think I want one thin dime going for killing a child in the womb? I'll render to Caesar what is his and his only, but to God first and foremost what is His right...the right to create. I hope I'm not on an island alone if that time comes.
There are many methods of abortion. The procedure used depends largely upon the stage of pregnancy and the size of the unborn child. Dr. J.C. Willke, in his book, Abortion: Questions and Answers (Hayes Publishing Co. Inc, Cincinnati, 1985), has divided the methods of abortion into three main categories: those that invade the uterus and kill the child by instruments which enter the uterus through the cervix; those that kill the preborn child by administration of drugs and then induce labour and the delivery of a dead baby; and, those that invade the uterus by abdominal surgery.
Dilation of the uterus is required in cervical methods of abortion. The usual method of dilation is to insert a series of instruments of increasing size into the cervix. A set of dilators, metallic curved instruments, are used to open the cervix sufficiently to accommodate the instruments of abortion. In contrast with a normal birth, where the dilation occurs slowly over a period of many hours, the forceful stretching by the abortionist to open the cervix takes a matter of seconds. This premature and unnatural stretching of the cervix can result in permanent physical injury to the mother.
Laminaria (dehydrated material, usually seaweed) is sometimes used to reduce damage to the cervix. Inserted into the cervix the day before the scheduled abortion, it absorbs water and swells, gradually pushing open the cervix in the process.
At Eight Weeks
At eight to nine weeks the eyelids have begun forming and hair appears. By the ninth and tenth weeks the preborn child sucks her thumb, turns somersaults, jumps, can squint to close out light, frown, swallow, and move her tongue.
At this early stage of development, suction abortions are performed using a smaller tube, requiring little dilation of the cervix. This is called "menstrual extraction." However, if all the fetal remains are not removed, infection results, requiring full dilation of the cervix and a scraping out of the womb.
Suction Aspiration
This is the most common method of abortion during the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. General or local anaesthesia is given to the mother and her cervix is quickly dilated. A suction curette (hollow tube with a knife-edged tip) is inserted into the womb. This instrument is then connected to a vacuum machine by a transparent tube. The vacuum suction, 29 times more powerful than a household vacuum cleaner, tears the fetus and placenta into small pieces which are sucked through the tube into a bottle and discarded.
Dilation and Curettage (D&C)
This method is similar to the suction method with the added insertion of a hook shaped knife (curette) which cuts the baby into pieces. The pieces are scraped out through the cervix and discarded [Note: This abortion method should not be confused with a therapeutic D&C done for reasons other than pregancy.]
At Twelve Weeks
By the end of the third month all arteries are present, including the coronary vessels of the heart. Blood is circulating through these vessels to all body parts.
The heart beat ranges during this fetal period from 110 to 160 beats per minute. All blood cells are produced by the liver and spleen, a job soon taken over by the bone marrow. White blood cells, important for immunity, are formed in the lymph nodes and thymus.
Vocal chords are complete, and the child can and does sometimes cry (silently). The brain is fully formed, and the child can feel pain. The fetus may even suck his thumb. The eyelids now cover the eyes, and will remain shut until the seventh month to protect the delicate optical nerve fibers.
14 weeks: Muscles lenghten and become organized. The mother will soon start feeling the first flutters of the baby kicking and moving inside.
15 weeks: The fetus has an adult's taste buds and may be able to savor the mother's meals.
16 weeks: Five and a half inches tall and only six ounces in weight, eyebrows, eyelashes and fine hair appear. The child can grasp with his hands, kick, or even somersault.
At Eighteen Weeks
The fetus is now about 5 inches long. The child blinks, grasps, and moves her mouth. Hair grows on the head and body.
20 weeks: The child can hear and recognize mother's voice. Though still small and fragile, the baby is growing rapidly and could possibly survive if born at this stage. Fingernails and fingerprints appear. Sex organs are visible. Using an ultrasound device, the doctor can tell if the child is a girl or a boy.
Dilation and Evacuation (D&E)
This method is used up to 18 weeks' gestation. Instead of the loop-shaped knife used in D&C abortions, a pair of forceps is inserted into the womb to grasp part of the fetus. The teeth of the forceps twist and tear the bones of the unborn child. This process is repeated until the fetus is totally dismembered and removed. Usually the spine must be snapped and the skull crushed in order to remove them.
Salt Poisoning (Saline Injection):
Used after 16 weeks (four months) when enough fluid has accumulated. A long needle injects a strong salt solution through the mother's abdomen into the baby's sac. The baby swallows this fluid and is poisoned by it. It also acts as a corrosive, burning off the outer layer of skin. It normally takes somewhat over an hour for the baby to die from this. Within 24 hours, labor will usually set in and the mother will give birth to a dead or dying baby. (There have been many cases of these babies being born alive. They are usually left unattended to die. However, a few have survived and later been adopted.)
At Six Months
Seen here at six months, the unborn child is covered with a fine, downy hair called lanugo. Its tender skin is protected by a waxy substance called vernix. Some of this substance may still be on the child's skin at birth at which time it will be quickly absorbed. The child practices breathing by inhaling amnionic fluid into developing lungs.
Prostaglandin Chemical Abortion
This form of abortion uses chemicals developed by the Upjohn Pharmaceutical Co. which cause the uterus to contract intensely, pushing out the developing baby. The contractions are more violent than normal, natural contractions, so the unborn baby is frequently killed by them -- some have even been decapitated. Many, however, have also been born alive.
Hysterotomy or Caesarean Section
Used mainly in the last three months of pregnancy, the womb is entered by surgery through the wall of the abdomen. The technique is similar to a Caesarean delivery, except that the umbilical cord is usually cut while the baby is still in the womb, thus cutting off his oxygen supply and causing him to suffocate. Sometimes the baby is removed alive and simply left in a corner to die of neglect or exposure.
At 30 Weeks
For several months, the umbilical cord has been the baby's lifeline to the mother. Nourishment is transferred from the mother's blood, through the placenta, and into the umbilical cord to the fetus. If the mother ingests any toxic substances, such as drugs or alcohol, the baby receives these as well.
32 weeks: The fetus sleeps 90-95% of the day, and sometimes experiences REM sleep, an indication of dreaming.
Partial-Birth Abortion
Five steps to a partial birth abortion:
1. Guided by ultrasound, the abortionist grabs the baby's legs with forceps.
2. The baby's leg is pulled out into the birth canal.
3. The abortionist delivers the baby's entire body, except for the head.
4. The abortionist jams scissors into the baby's skull. The scissors are then opened to enlarge the skull.
5. The scissors are removed and a suction catheter is inserted. The child's brains are sucked out, causing the skull to collapse. The dead baby is then removed.
Pro-choice advocates have no logic to defend abortion because the practice is simply legalized murder. Shame on anyone who tolerates this abomination.
Last evening, John Allen Muhammed was put to death for murder during a three-week killing spree in 2002. No doubt Maj. Nidal Hasan will get the same justice.
The President was at his eloquent best when he noted, at Fort Worth, "It may be hard to comprehend the twisted logic that led to this tragedy. But this much we do know: No faith justifies these murderous and craven acts.''
I say no twisted logic of pro-choice advocates, or anyone with any faith or sense of decency, compassion, or love of children can justify the murderous and craven acts that are abortions.
One last story: Abby Johnson, 29, was a Planned Parenthood Director in Bryan, Texas. After witnessing an abortion while watching the baby die on an ultrasound screen, Johnson resigned her position in October and started volunteering for Coalition for Life, a pro-life group located just a block away from the Planned Parenthood clinic where she worked for eight years.
We're all in this together, my friend. If you want to enjoy company with Jack the Ripper, that's your choice. I hope you will have a change of heart as did Ms. Johnson.
A couple weeks/months ago you said you thought someone like me might have a place in heaven - now you think i DO have a place next to Jack the Ripper.
And you're right - it is my opinion. You still think you are basing all your arguments on FACT and the bible and blah - but your arguments are just as opinion based as mine.
I hope that you will have a change of heart too - stop the finger pointing and do something positive to help your cause. Adopt a drug addicted youngster with learning problems who used to watch his mother prostitute herself to pay for her drugs. Adopt this child and give him/her a loving home. That would be a start, rather than pointing fingers through your blog and stirring up the debate with pictures of aborted fetuses. TO me this is far more of an injustice than ANY abortion - this picture - http://www.greatdreams.com/war/Napalm-vietnam.jpg
You may demean religion and continue your diatribes against the belief in a Supreme Being held by well over nine out of ten of the world’s population. I suspect most people can see through your atheistic, in-your-face bravado. After this response of mine, I don't see any compelling reason to reason with you on anything, unless you show some common sense logic, with civility, in your replies.
As to the double standard on the death penalty...I did not say I agreed with the "justice" that the military courts may give Nidal (the death penalty), nor do I suggest that anyone who is complicit in abortions is destined for eternal damnation.
As I've said before to you, there is subjective truth and there is objective truth. I try to seek objective truth. What a person may believe subjectively is between that person and his/her conscience and/or God.
I trust all aborted children are with God. Hopefully their parents will join them as they realize over time what they have done. Yet even if they subjectively believe an abortion is not wrong, it seems to me that God will only judge them on their subjective understanding of objective truth. That, however, assumes they have sought objective truth sincerely.
It is in this that I feel motivated to point out what science shows us in ultra-sound images. In 1973 when Roe v. Wade became law, there were no ultra-sound images available. I believe this alone has caused over half of the American public to become pro-life.
Coupled with that, there is the common sense conclusion that anyone should come to in seeing how illogical it is to say that a growing fetus is not human, but a three-minute old baby is.
In Dei Verbum, Chapter III, paragraph 12, from Vatican II, there is good advice given in attempting to understand writings in the Old Testament.
“To search out the intention of the sacred writers, attention should be given, among other things, to "literary forms." For truth is set forth and expressed differently in texts which are variously historical, prophetic, poetic, or of other forms of discourse. The interpreter must investigate what meaning the sacred writer intended to express and actually expressed in particular circumstances by using contemporary literary forms in accordance with the situation of his own time and culture. For the correct understanding of what the sacred author wanted to assert, due attention must be paid to the customary and characteristic styles of feeling, speaking and narrating which prevailed at the time of the sacred writer, and to the patterns men normally employed at that period in their everyday dealings with one another.”
these also confuse me -- Genesis 38:24 and Numbers 5:12-31 YIKES! That old testament is some scary stuff.
The God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New Testament. So why the apparent contradictions?
The God who created the physical universe quite probably in what science calls the Big Bang 13 billion years ago or so has never been in a hurry to reveal His actions. So it is with the Old Testament. He reveals therein that He is Creator to be worshiped as the one, true God. He identifies a group of people, the Hebrews, to bring the message to mankind.
They respond, haltingly at times, in accepting His revelation. They may or may not have changed their cultural morality as regards polygamy, treatment of enemies, and their perception of Yahweh as supporter of everything they did as a people. Remember, God rarely acts at the snap of a finger. He took His time with the chosen people.
Much of the history of the Jewish people up until the time of David is open to question. Written down during the Babylonian Exile in the 6th century BC and later, the details of their heros Abraham and Moses were simply not known. The "hero" stories, yes...and made believeable in the methodology of historical reporting. Yet, were they embellishments of dimly-remembered stories whose source we may never know...possibly. Or were they fabrications to teach, in parable form, some lesson...possibly. However, the focus was usually on a moral lesson, in most cases superior to the morality of contemporaneous pagan tribes. It is this which made the Hebrew "history" unique.
The details of the Book of Joshua with its non-stop slaughter of those towns occupying the Promised Land, for example, have little corroboration from archeology. Did the events of that book actually occur? Or was it the way in which a "great people" should have done things in the view of the writers of the 6th century BC?
Is this to say that the Old Testament is not God's revealed Word? No. It is only to say that God used that people, whose way of expressing their belief in Yahweh fit their primitive mentality, to reveal Himself slowly albeit incompletely.
It is only with Jesus Christ, co-equal and co-eternal with the Father, that we arrive at God's full revelation of Himself as all-good, all-loving, yet always respectful of His gift to us...free will.
Finally, it is in the continued work of the God the Holy Spirit until the end of the age that we have the assurance that the revelation of Christ will endure.
Upon our death we will see God as He really is. As Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 13: 12: "At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known."
If one who is skeptical of Scripture does not understand the historical-critical method of interpreting the Old Testament, that person is apt do what the early Christian heretical theologian Marcion (ca 85-160 AD) did...dump the Old Testament as anything but God's Word...or point out the "contradictions" between the OT and the NT.
Oh those sound absolutely moral.
I can almost guarantee you that as a non-religious person I am likely far more "moral" that 99% of God-praising people that seem to get especially faithful when they want to push their own views on others, or it somehow benefits them personally. That sounds decidedly unmoral to me.
As to dialogue with atheists, I have done that many times, but when the same negativity about God's existence is shoved in my face, I confess I get frustrated.
If you have gone through my countless replies on the topic, I have always maintained that I do not judge anyone on their subjective view of truth. I've said several times that atheists may very well go to heaven if they have made a sincere effort to find objective truth.
No, religion is not all goodness and light when mankind uses it to murder, kill, rape, etc.
I agree with your last sentence without hesitation, and I agree that my moral code is subjective, but I have faith that it is in line with objective truth.
Jeff...How can one dialogue with one who dismisses the existence of a Creator, one who does not believe in an afterlife, one whose moral code is his own, one who would choose his own abortion, and one who won't agree with the moral conclusions of the major world religions? Mission impossible"
However your message today which I am replying to was nice and impressively so, you have MPD? just joking and nice to see you typing in this tone, Kol Shalom m'Ahava
The Planned Parenthood Federation of America has released its annual report for fiscal year 2007-2008. The document shows the nation's largest abortion business is getting bigger as it showed an increase of five percent more abortions and increased taxpayer funding.
According to Planned Parenthood's latest report, abortions increased to 305,310 abortions up from 289,750 in 2006.
That 5.3 percent increase came at a time when the Alan Guttmacher Institute, it's former research arm, showed abortions were at near-historic lows.
Thus, while abortions were on the decline in the United States, and while Planned Parenthood sought to distance itself from its abortion business, Planned Parenthood did more abortions than it has done in years.
The annual report showed more government funding heading to the abortion business even if the taxpayer funds did not directly pay for abortions.
The total government grants and contracts received by PPFA affiliates from government sources including state, local and federal governments, increased from $337 million to $350 million.
The government is funding murder, and you can be sure that what comes out of conference between the House and Senate version of healthcare will increase that funding, denials to the contrary.
Today, Dec. 13th, the Senate voted on a $1.1 trillion omnibus bill which, among other things will fund Medicare and Medicaid. Okay, that portion is huge but necessary. The Senate approved the omnibus spending bill which would lift the 13-year-long ban on directly paying for abortions in the nation's capital. The camel's (or donkey's) nose and head of Senate Democrats, with their pro-choice party platform, is under the pro-life tent, even if the funding is only for abortions in DC. The legislation, which President Barack Obama is expected to sign, also contains funding for Planned Parenthood and the UNFPA. As predictable, by a 57-35 vote, the Democrats prevailed.
However, there is $447 billion in operating budgets for 10 Cabinet departments. Mixed in are more than 5,000 earmarks totaling $3.9 billion.
Well, we’re in the middle of a recession, unemployment is 10%, a trillion-plus dollar healthcare bill will probably become law before Christmas, cap and trade is on the horizon, so what’s $3,900,000,000 for pet congressional projects…chicken feed. Who notices, who cares, and why focus on such miniscule expenditures when our current national debt ceiling has to be raised to $14,000,000,000,000 just to get by for a few more months? And who, in their right mind, would begin funding murder of children in the womb and go on record for such insanity? But, back to the other insanities of the bill...
Take a look at a few of the pork projects from Democrats
( and Republicans alike…)
Citizens Against Government Waste, as well as Sen. John McCain's staff, have drawn attention to dozens of items they consider questionable. Here's just a sampling:
-- $150,000 for educational programs and exhibitions at the National Building Museum.
-- $400,000 for renovation of the Brooklyn Botanical Garden.
-- $150,000 for exhibits at the Theodore Roosevelt Inaugural Site Foundation in Buffalo, N.Y.
-- $500,000 for Mississippi River exhibits at the National Mississippi River Museum and Aquarium in Dubuque, Iowa.
-- $200,000 for the Washington National Opera.
-- $30,000 for the Woodstock Film Festival Youth Initiative.
-- $2.7 million for the University of Nebraska Medical Center, to support surgical operations in space.
-- $200,000 for a visitor's center in Bastrop, Texas.
-- $700,000 for a project called, "Shrimp Industry Fishing Effort Research Continuation," at the National Marine Fisheries Service in Silver Spring, Md.
-- $292,200 for the elimination of blight in Scranton, Pa.
-- $750,000 for exhibits at the World Food Prize Hall of Laureates in Iowa.
-- $1.6 million for a tram between the Marshall Flight Center and Huntsville Botanical Garden in Alabama.
-- $655,000 for equipment at the Institute for Irritable Bowel Syndrome Research in Los Angeles.
The House version, recently passed, has 9000 earmarks. When the Senate and House get together to work out a combined package, it’s Christmas presents for legislators’ constituents in almost every district and state in the Union.
Other examples:
Senator Harry Reid wants $143,000 for national history programs at the Las Vegas History Museum.
From a Wyoming congressman, Barbara Cubin, put in almost $200,000 for digitizing and editing the collection at the Buffalo Bill Historical Center. (She's not even in office anymore.)
Then there's the $200,000 to be used for tattoo removal, courtesy of California's Howard Berman.
And Richard Shelby's $800,000 for catfish genetics down in Alabama.
More than $1 million to battle Utah's Mormon crickets, which apparently have nothing to do with the Mormon people.
Max Baucus has a quarter of a million slated for the Montana Sheep Institute.
And thanks to Tom Harkin, almost $2 million for swine odor and manure management.
More than $2 million for buildings at the Center for Grape Genetics in Geneva, New York, requested by Senator Chuck Schumer.
Senator Saxby Chambliss wants $200,000 for improving blueberry production and efficiency.
And more than $300,000 for research in shellfish technologies in Virginia requested by Senator Jim Webb.
Over $5 million going to salaries of workers at the Sugar Beet Disease and Oncology Labs in Michigan, courtesy of their senator, Mr. Carl Levin.
Senator Daniel Inouye of Hawaii wants $162,000 for rodent control, half a million for a fruit fly facility, and more than $200,000 for education programs at the Polynesian Voyaging Society. That's a group studying how Polynesian people sailed around the Pacific Ocean.
Have we examined more than 13,000 more earmarks? No. I say, the money tree needs major trimming. Cut the money tree down to a size where it won’t destroy our country's economic future, because much of Washington's money tree is rotten to the core, and in 2010, get rid of those parasites in Washington who continue to feed off our tax dollars that haven’t even sprouted yet.
While the Democrats were at it, they dumped a 13 year off-limits status quo by authorizing the use of federal dollars to fund future abortions in the very beltway area they work...a new moral low for Congress' 28% approval rating. Is there any morality left in Washington?
Mark my words, the Stupak amendment in the House healthcare bill is now in serious jeopardy...and this country will use tax dollars to murder children in the womb. Talk about death panels...oh, by the way, the Prez did give an abbreviated moral justification for just wars in Oslo...too bad he may not see the immoral use of federal dollars to kill our own future citizens.